Money

Money

Postby tahanson43206 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:55 am

This "Money" topic is created per a suggestion by Maurice Goldsmith, following a spirited discussion between keithd21 and germanforestgump.

Because the the Major Topic structure of this forum is fixed, the best match to this topic seemed to be the "preservation" category.

Maurice proposed "energy" as a monetary unit, and specifically suggested a quantity of diesel fuel.

Keithd21 supported that idea, with the generalization of the Kilowatt Hour as a unit.

Simple trade of commodities is most likely if "civilization" breaks down too far, and barter survives in 2015 to facilitate exchange between individuals.

(th)
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Re: Money

Postby Maurice Goldsmith » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:51 am

Anyone heard of the Grameen Bank? I'm just reading about it now - it supports the poorest in society with micro loans which are too small to interest mainstream banks. Seems like a useful model to keep in mind for a world where the financial system needs rebuilding.

TH - thanks for taking up my suggestion and creating this topic!
Maurice
I am the author of a post-apocalyptic novel - The Lucifer Bug http://www.theluciferbug.com/
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Re: Money

Postby germanforestgump » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:56 pm

Yes - a very good idea!
In Germany, there are some local and regional "barter rings" ("Tauschringe"), which are evolving beeing connected nationwide.
I am member of the "Talente Tauschring Hunsrueck".
But sadly at the moment i have not enough time to handle intensive with it because i`m too busy earning euros.
But it will be a part of plan B if i would loose my jobs.
The problem in a rural region is the relation of exchanging little values over long distances.
And at this time the members are a minority and the "Talente" are not accepted in normal shops until now. ( Some are working to change that.)

On global scale, i think about a basic income, payed to everyone in existential need in form of a new neutral currency, bounded at the price of cereals.
There had been historic examples of this concept in germany in form of "rye money" - i must recherche more about it.
F.e. hundred "globaly" could represent the value of hundred kilo rice.
But i have no idea how to convince the farmers to accept this currency and how to avoid inflation.
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Re: Money: Grameen Bank type loans to village

Postby tahanson43206 » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:06 pm

Considering maurice goldsmith topic of "Grameen Bank" ...

Considering germanforestgump initiative to try to help refugees plopped into a holding center near him ...

Continuing contemplation of "Village Building" as a small scale version of "Nation Building" ...

A "Grameen Bank" type loan to an (arbitrarily defined) population of a "village" would cover everything needed to insure the well being of the population to achieve some mutually agreed upon economic objective.

An example (of many that are available) is Los Alamos, which was constructed on empty soil as a going "village" in World War II, to provide a secure location for workers who were able to cajole from a reluctant Mother Nature the knowledge needed to design and build a weapon so powerful that it cannot be used, and HAS NOT been used in conflict since World War II.

I argue that the economic benefit of their work is incalculable, but my major point is that the "village" became a city which flourishes to this day, based primarily upon intellectual activity.

Thus, if an agency can provide the funds for power/energy to meet the needs of an economic activity, and for the materials necessary including living essentials for the population, then the "village" has a running chance of paying back the "loan" over the course of time.

A policy of working at the "village" scale could facilitate accurate measurement of success, in contrast with the unmeasurable scale of "Nation" building.

(th)
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Re: Money: Muslim Financing without Interest

Postby tahanson43206 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:50 pm

The prohibition against earning interest from loans which is part of the Islamic tradition was something of which I was aware but did not consider important enough to investigate until now. However, a recent post by germanforestgump, showing the many challenges that must be faced by developers of a sea based habitat for humans led me to investigate.

I was surprised to discover that the prohibition led to a practice that looks (to me) almost identical to modern American Venture Capitalism.

Begin Quotation from Wikipedia:
20th century[edit] -Further information: Islamic economic jurisprudence
Publications available relating to Islamic Finance
Year Number: prior to 1979 238, 1999 2722, 2006 6484
SOURCE: Islamic Finance
Project Databank[21]

Building housing the Islamic Banking & Finance Institute Malaysia (IBFIM) in downtown Kuala Lumpur.
In the 20th and 21st century there has been “a gradual evolution of the institutions of interest-free financial enterprises across the world”[22]

In the 20th century, Islamic scholars such as Naeem Siddiqi, Maulana Maududi, Muhammad Hamidullah, all recognised the need for commercial banks and their perceived "necessary evil," and proposed a banking system based on the concept of Mudarabha, defined as a relationship in which one party contributes capital and other expertise to earn profit which is shared at an agreed upon ratio, such as 50:50. The Investor is called Rab ul Maal and the other party is termed as Mudarib.[citation needed] Further works specifically devoted to the subject of interest-free banking were authored by Muhammad Uzair (1955), Abdullah al-Araby (1967), Nejatullah Siddiqi (1961, 1969), al-Najjar (1971) and Baqir al-Sadr (1961, 1974).[citation needed]
End Quotation.

I like what I see here, because (as I interpret the passage) the investor becomes a part of the project. The 50-50 split idea itself is appealing (to me), because it implies an understanding that lending of resources is just half of a project. The other (equal) half is the physical labor and more importantly, the vision, judgement and management skill that leads to a successful outcome.

Thus, if the enterprise is to build and operate a PERMANENT economically self-sustaining habitat on (and in) the ocean, then those who would provide the physical resources would share equally in the profits to be obtained with those who provide the vision, the labor, and the skills to direct the labor of those who have specific skills needed.

There is (was and probably still is) a proposal to build floating habitats for skilled persons to live just off shore of the United States, to solve the problem of insufficient green card opportunities provided by the congress of the United States.

Such habitats would be economically self-sustaining due to the value of the intellectual capabilities of the residents, who could solve difficult problems for US companies without having green cards, due to the modern communications systems available.

As I envision future development of self-sustaining sea based habits, not only would the intellectual service via telecommunications provide economic gain for the enterprise, but traditional agriculture could flourish due to the invention of modern hydroponics, as shown in the PBS program "Humanity from Space". The surface of the ocean has room for more than one living space structure, surrounded by hydroponics barges with solar panels sharing space with plants.

Both the Western venture capital system and the Islamic financing system appear (to me) to provide a basis for funding sea based economic enterprise on the bases of shared profits.

(th)
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Re: Money

Postby germanforestgump » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:30 pm

Interesting proposal!
The rich families of Dubai, Katar ect. have the capital and the experience to build elaborated living sites into the sea (palm island).
The motivation to help their islamic brothers may lead to constructive activities!
It only needs an famous engeneer group (f.e.who?) to present a ready-to-build project to them.
Maybe such a project is also worth to be supported by the new development bank of the BRICS...
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Re: Money

Postby keithd21 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:55 am

Back in the days I was doing my grad school work for the MBA...we had some Islamic students from Lebanon and Palestine...they twisted themselves into knots to do the finance homework without calling a spade a spade. Interest became "return" or "consideration for capital". But "Interest: was forbidden. Muslims still borrow, they just do it differently and with unique language. For example, an Islamic car loan involves having a third party "buy a car for you" and "sell it to you in installment payments for a profit". There is no "interest." But the "consideration rate" is clearly published.

*shrug*
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Re: Money

Postby Dave Z » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:07 am

RE Interest

Outta my league, here, but I've noted that loans-at-interest keep cropping up as an apocalyptic common denominator where financial collapse is a factor.

Theory runs thus: Averaged across an economy, more money must be returned than is loaned out. Economy must grow to cover interest debt. Growth is unsustainable in finite environment. Sooner or later, the economy runs out of affordable resources and collapses. If it's global in scope, so is the collapse. If true, doesn't bode well at current, unprecedented, global debt levels.

Interesting to note that not just Muslims, but until fairly recently, Christians and Jews as well were prohibited to loan at interest within their faith. Apparently similar prohibitions extend back to first recorded history.

Imagine the consistency of experience across millennia to make a correlation! Might be worth thinking about.

I find the shared risk partnership of capital and entrepreneurship attractive. Much more so than UNpartnered loans from the Sharks. Er, True Risk Takers. Masters of the Universe? Seems more often a parasitic predation of Takers from Doers. But I rant.

Maybe it's a way to end run around the Commodification of Everything?

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Re: Money

Postby Maurice Goldsmith » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:15 pm

Interesting thoughts on this topic. I'm more and more coming to the conclusion that it's money that allows mankind to destroy the environment - if everything is reduced to nothing more than money that allows such things as the chopping down rainforests to go ahead without a second thought.

Any thoughts on alternatives, and how they might be introduced?

MG
I am the author of a post-apocalyptic novel - The Lucifer Bug http://www.theluciferbug.com/
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Re: Money

Postby tahanson43206 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:31 pm

Hi Maurice,
It's good to see your name back on the Knowledge Forum.
Per the topic ...
Money is just an accounting device.
The root of the problem you've pointed out is human behavior.
If humans were still using barter (and actually, some still are), they could slash and burn the environment just as fast as they do now.
It seems to me that a partial antidote to human behavior that has long term destructive consequences is education.
Another antidote (clearly) is peer pressure.
Another well established antidote is incarceration.
However, Nature herself has a most effective antidote: starvation!
Another tool that Nature wields is disease.
In short, money (in my opinion) has almost nothing to do with the problem.
(th)
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