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20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:28 pm
by tahanson43206
Yahoo News just published this announcement: ... 13262.html

Here is an outstanding example of the kind of "wealthy family" investment that germanforestgump may have been talking about.

Is there anything the members of this forum can do to support the initiative?

Certainly volunteers would be a benefit to this chap, to help the refugees to build infrastructure and a new home.


Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:34 pm
by Billy
Don't have time to post, but will when I return.

I can almost guarantee you won't like it.

Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:12 pm
by Billy
I took longer than normal to mull over the proposition put forth by Mr. Sawiris - that being, to buy a Greek or Italian island to set up the 'refugees' - while interesting on its face, I have to say I oppose it.


- Greece and Italy are sovereign nations. To wait until both of them are in dire financial straits, then dangle a carrot in front of them with the goal of leveraging land from them, is shameless opportunism at its worst.

- Why doesn't Mr. Sawiris - who apparently can afford it - buy up large swathes of Egypt and build a settlement there for the refugees? Egypt is orders of magnitude larger than Greece, and there will be no issues with jurisdiction or customs.

- There is a humanitarian crisis resulting from civil war in the arab world. There are arab nations that are not at war - most notably Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, etc - that have more space than some island in the Med. Since the civil war is an arab problem, then let the other arab nations take care of their brethren - especially the OPEC nations with large piles of discretionary funds.

- I fail to understand why Europe should be the one to take multiple millions of refugees. Up to 20 million wait on Europe's doorstep. Eastern Europe has balked at having the EU tell them they have to take so many refugees. Just watched a video of police shooting tear gas at a crowd of Europeans who were agitating against the refugees they currently have...

- I have yet to hear of an endgame strategy - I hear them referred to as "asylum seekers" and 'refugees' - implying that they seek temporary refuge from hostile conditions at home. But almost in the same sentence, Mr. Sawiris says: "Greece or Italy sell me an island, I'll call its independence and host the migrants and provide jobs for them building their new country," he wrote. To me, that does not say "temporary refugee" - that says "colonization effort". Further backed up by Mr. Sawiris saying: "And if things improve, whoever wants to go back (to their homeland) goes back.".

That says leaving will be voluntary. Something tells me there won't be too many volunteers ready to go back home to wherever they came from.

Obviously, taking multiples of millions of refugees is not a popular subject. The arab world seems to be expecting Europe to accept millions of refugees - and pay for them - which conveniently leaves them off the hook. Mr. Sawiris is willing to buy property to accommodate the refugees - but only so long as it is not in Egypt's back yard.

I cannot but help think of what I know about Muslims - that theirs is a militant religion. From the moment the first Muslim enters a new territory, they consider themselves 'at war'. That you don't consider yourself to be at war with them is not relevant. What is relevant, is that they do. This defacto state of war exists until the last "Infidel" is either converted or killed. Only then is "peace" declared.

Muslims tend to think in terms of centuries. Americans think in terms of the next election. Talk to an educated Muslim, and he will know about the Moors' invasion of Europe from Spain, only stopped by Charles Martel. He will know of the push from Constantinople into Europe, only stopped by Polish King Jan Sobieski at the Battle of Vienna a few centuries later. They have tried before. They will continue to try. I view 20 million "refugees" as an invasion force, intent to gain a foothold, colonize and then conquer.

The Muslims have a formal policy of "Al-Taqiyya" - lying to Infidels in order to advance greater Islam. Meaning, if lying will advance Islam, a Muslim will lie to your face and feel perfectly justified doing it. The problem is, you don't know what he's lying about and what he is telling the truth about. He could very well be a "refugee". He could also have the greater goal to advance Islam in Europe to the point where a Christian Europe is extinct. But he won't tell you that.

Just my two cents...

Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:39 pm
by germanforestgump
Hi Billy!
I agree with You and see it critical if it seems to be a good strategy for extremely rich people:
first collecting their richness by exploitation and tax-avoiding,
than use this richness to cut off territories from financial waterboarded states,
than create their own "states" and recruit an own "folks" of refugees which will become total depending clients of them.

Such a man will be a dictator - maybe a "good dictator", but who knows?
And what about his offsprings?

Would some "insular Assads" be a solution?
I do not think so.

But the most critical fact is:
He would create a ghetto.
Who will manage the education of the children?
Following which criteria?

Compare this with the chance growing up and study in a strong and wide plural european society! ... p=cur&_r=1

In fact, there is a strong fear about the "islamisation of Europe".
But: what will be the alternative?

Remember Afghanistan:
hundred thousands of young refugees flyed to Pakistan.
The word society failed to give them a secular and scientific education.
So they go to the madrasses, getting teached the coran and nothing else but the coran... were created the taliban!

I am glad about every child and youngster who has the chance getting a rational education in Europe - no matter what it will cost!
The costs of a whole generation only "educated" by fanatists will be much higher.

And: it is NOT a question about islam vs cristianity!
It is a question about rationalism and human rights vs. militant fanatism.
(The nowaday christianity seems to be a teethless tiger compared with militant islam - but i saw horrifying videos about "christian" terrorist camps for children in the US...)

The impetus of "The Knowledge", as i understand it, is NOT to take part for one religion against another.
But to overcome all irrational ways of thinking and acting for the benefit of mankind.

Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:48 am
by Billy
Hello Hans,

Thank you for replying.

I do not think that Mr. Sawiris wants to set himself up as a King or ruler of a bunch of refugees, Syrian or otherwise. I do think he views it as an opportunity to leverage land from Italy or Greece and allow Islam to gain a formal foothold in Europe.

If the Arab states - flush with petrodollars and currently at peace - wish to show theirs is a "Religion of Peace", then let them demonstrate that by setting aside land and resources to take care of their fellow Muslims who are refugees or asylum seekers.

Compare this with the chance growing up and study in a strong and wide plural European society!

I do not agree with anything the NY Times prints as a rule. Both print and broadcast media have been compromised to the point where I feel safe assuming the exact opposite of what they say is the truth. 20 years ago, there were dozens of owners of various media outlets. Now, there are 5. They say what they are told to say.

The narrative is set: Admitting millions of Muslim 'refugees' is a done deal, no matter what the citizens of Germany and Austria say or think about it. Though they don't look very much like refugees - wearing nice western clothes, new Nike sneakers, etc... and they mostly seem to be men of fighting age. Curious. What few women there are, look healthy and happy. Same with what few children arrive.

Merkel has already said "‘the right to political asylum has no limits on the number of asylum seekers.’" - meaning Germans will be forced to take as many as they are told.

Meanwhile, Orban is vilified for not allowing Hungary's "refugees" free passage, even though he's just following EU law that says refugees must be vetted and given identification papers. Plus, according to EU law, the first EU landing country is responsible for registering the migrants and is forbidden from allowing them transit without proper authorization.

Giving a Muslim a European education and access to what others have made will not turn them into Europeans. They are, and will remain, Muslims - their history, religion and culture is alien to Europe and they will maintain that. That you might think otherwise does not matter to them. In fact, I think they are counting on people thinking that giving them free everything will somehow convince them to hang up the sword and become peaceful Europeans. They don't do that where they are from, and they will not do that wherever they end up in Europe.

This is the account by Kamil Bulonis, who writes a blog called “Obywatel Swiata” [Citizen of the World]:

One and a half hours ago, on the border of Italy and Austria, I saw with my own eyes massive incidents involving immigrants… in all my solidarity with people finding themselves in a difficult life situation I must say, that what I saw breeds fear…

This great mass of people — sorry that I write this, but it’s an absolute horde. Vulgar words, thrown bottles, loud cries of “We want Germany” — is Germany at present some kind of paradise? I saw how they surrounded the car of an older Italian lady, pulled her out by her hair and wanted to drive off in that car. The coach I was on in a group, they attempted to overturn. Excrement was thrown at us, they banged on the doors, so that the driver would open them, they spat at the window… I ask, for what purpose? How can this wild horde assimilate in Germany? For a moment, I thought I was in a war… ... t-matters/

I am glad about every child and youngster who has the chance getting a rational education in Europe - no matter what it will cost!

As an American of German blood, I am happy you are so confident in spending other people's money so freely and disregarding how much blood will be spilled by admitting millions of Muslims into Germany for the sake of an education.

And: it is NOT a question about islam vs cristianity!

That you think so does not matter to them. They believe it.

It is a question about rationalism and human rights vs. militant fanatism.

You argue your own beliefs, not the beliefs of the "refugees" and "asylum seekers". Frankly, they do not care what you think or how you rationalize permitting an invasion of Europe, only that you permit it. Islam has never been and - unless it has its own Reformation - never will be about human rights nor rationalism. You fail to understand that, culturally, they are a thousand years behind Europe and the greater West.

(The nowaday christianity seems to be a teethless tiger compared with militant islam

Speak for yourself. I was called a "Crusader" and an "Infidel". I'm proud of both. The fact that Christianity has been infiltrated and corrupted from within over the last 70 to 80 years is common knowledge. It has gone from a Patriarchal religion to a Matriarchal one. Literally going from "Walk the line, or you will burn" to "You can do anything you want to do, so long as you're "really sorry" about it later on...". Apologies, but I was raised with a rifle in one hand, the Douay-Rheims Bible in the other, before the rot was complete. I'm not one of those squishy Christians.

but i saw horrifying videos about "christian" terrorist camps for children in the US...

You argue "Tu Quoque?" I think it best we concentrate on the subject, which is the Muslim invasion of the West.

The impetus of "The Knowledge", as i understand it, is NOT to take part for one religion against another.
But to overcome all irrational ways of thinking and acting for the benefit of mankind.

And I agree. However, until Islam has a Reformation, they will remain a militant religion - a fighting faith. Which means I will dedicate myself to defending my own to the exclusion of them and their religion.

Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:32 pm
by germanforestgump
Hi Billy!
only a short response, because i am on the jump to my job:

Personalities do have much more facettes besides beeing muslim or christian or secular humanist...
One fact is that there exist already since a long time a huge amount of syrian expats in germany without any special problems.
There exist many binational couples in both contries and a thousand years old tradition of economic and cultural intercourse over and around the mediteranean sea.

The "Renaissance" and the cristian reformation had not been possible without the arabic islamic culture rescuing, storing and evolving the Knowledge of antique science, protecting it for to be destroyed by christian ignorance and intolerance.
There is a big tradition of respect and dialogue between the abrahamitic brother-religions which can not be destroyed by fanatics.

Maybe the "religious conflict" is mostly a camouflage to hide other agenda´s of specific agents.
This german politican points on the possibility that big refugees movings are calculated as a "migrant weapon" to destabilisate both european and oriental states in order to archieve at last economic benefits for a minority...

Maybe the calculation will fail by the unique will of a big majority of any religion and opinion to cooperate - it is in our hands!

Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:32 am
by Billy
Hello Hans,

Thanks for the reply.

Two things - the first, I was going to email to you, but thought it would be best here. I - we - translated it fairly well, I think. But I will also link to the original article in English. This article represents the first time I have ever heard the phrase "Weaponized Empathy" - I am sure I will hear it again.

Oh, and as far as "agendas" are concerned, Prince Richard Nikolaus von Coudenhove-Kalergi already had a plan to create a permanent underclass in Europe by allowing swarms of migrants to overrun the native population way back in the 1920's - ruled over by an elitist class, of which he was a part. It's an old plan given new legs, thanks to civil war in the Muslim world...


Völkermord, Islam und waffen Empathy

Wie einige meiner Leser wissen, bin ich ein Teil von armenischen Vorfahren. Früher war es eine Sache, die es nicht in meinem täglichen Denkprozess geben sollte, denn ich bin auch teilweise englischer Abstammung und bin voll Amerikaner, in Kultur, Sprache und Aussehen. Armenier können in der Regel sagen, dass ich armenischer Abstammung bin, aber nicht alle. Aber wie der militante Islam sich in den letzten Jahren zunehmend bemerkbar machte ist, dass diese Identität durch die Verbindung meiner eigenen Familie zu der Affäre wieder aufgetaucht ist

Dann sah ich dieses Foto eines ertrunkenen syrischen Jungen:

(photo 2464)

Dieses Foto war beabsichtigt, um eine Reaktion zu provozieren, und es tat.

Die “Linken” hätten Sie glauben lassen , dass wir “Rechten” keine Empathie haben. Wir wünschen die endlose Migration von Krisengebieten in der islamischen Welt weg, und dass, würden Sie sagen, ist kompitabel mit den Menschenrechten, Würde, Mitgefühl und so weiter.

Mein Großvater erzählte mir Geschichten von Armenien (Armenier, damals lebten in ganz Anatolien), an die er sich nur dunkel erinnern kann. Denn er war nur ein paar Jahre alt, als meine Familie entkam, knapp vor dem Völkermord im Osmanischen Reich. Meistens, erinnerte er sich durch die Geschichten die in der armenischen Exilgemeinde erzählt wurden.

Ganze Dörfer wurden ausgelöscht, alle Bewohner abgeschlachtet, die Gebäude niedergebrannt, das bewegliche Vermögen gestohlen und eingeschmolzen. Nichts ist davon geblieben. In den Tagen vor dem Völkermord, gab es zwei Dialekte der armenische Sprache, umgangssprachlich bezeichnet als die westliche oder Anatolian Dialekt und dem östlichen Dialekt. Der westliche Dialekt ist fast ausgestorben, nur noch von wenigen Ältesten in der Diaspora gesprochen. Mein Großvater konnte sie sprechen, aber meine Mutter kannte nur ein paar Worte. Nur der östlichen Dialekt überlebt. Die Hälfte von Armenien hat aufgehört zu existieren.

Dies waren ‘hardy’ Christen, die am Rande der byzantinischen und islamischen Welt seit Jahrhunderten überlebt hatten. Sie hatten neben Griechen und Crusaders gekämpft. Sie gehörten zu den frühesten - vielleicht die allerersten - Heiden die zum Christentum bekehrten. Sie sprachen eine alte Sprache, eine Variante der indo-europäischen Sprache, die entfernt mit der griechischen Sprache angezeigt wird, und nichts mit einer anderen zu tun hat.

Islam hat sie fast ausgelöscht.

Jetzt, wo die Christen im Mittleren Osten sich dem bedrohtnen Aussterben nähern, ist das neue Ziel die unzureichenden Muslims. Die Yeziden mit ihren synkretistischen Halb muslimischen Religion oder die Kurden, die ihre eigenen Nationalismus über ihre Religion erhoben (eine Seltenheit in der muslimischen Welt).

Ich fühle für sie. Tue ich wirklich. In der Tat, ich kann nicht sagen, wie sehr es mich schmerzt, diese Dinge zu sehen. Auf dem Knie meines Großvaters, hörte ich die Geschichten der armenischen Überlebenden. Insbesondere die einer Frau. Sie war ein Kind, als die Türken für ihre Familie kamen, aber sie war schön und hübsch. Ihre Eltern und Brüder wurden getötet und sie wurde wie ein Sklave an ein wohlhabenden Türken Harem verkauft. Ihre Geschichte des Überlebens und Flucht war erschreckend für mich als kind, und es hat ein Gefühl der Entschlossenheit eingeflösst, wie der Islam betroffen wurde, die bis heute nicht nachgelassen hat.

Können Sie sich das vorstellen? Sei sehen wie Ihre Familie geschlachtet wird und nur sie überleben, um als Sexsklavin von denen, die diese Tat getan haben benutzt zu werden? Schwarze in Amerika belehren mich nach meinem Weiß Privileg, Sie sagen, dass ihre Vorfahren Sklaven waren. Meine Vorfahren waren Sklaven erst vor kurzem, kürzer als die ihrigen. Meine wurden wie im Grosshandel abgeschlachtet.

Aber zurück zu dem zentralen Punkt, wenn Amerika meine Familie geschützt hat; Warum der Westen den Flüchtlingen von Syrien, Somalia, Libyen den Rücken zudrehen?

Weil sie die Quelle der Infektion mit sich bringen. Armenier war es gelungen, durch irgendeine Kraft, die ich manchmal sehr schwer und vollständig erfassen kann, durch Jahrtausende Jahre den Konflikt mit dem Islam, an ihrer europäischen Kultur und der christlichen Religion zu hängen. Sie hatten sich hartnäckig geweigert an den Islam und seinen Idealen wider Assimilation. Diese Flüchtlinge, denen ich von ganzem herzen ein Platz von Zuflucht und einen Ort der sicherheit geben möchte, tragen den Islam in sich.

Es gibt gute Muslime in der Welt, und ich möchte dies deutlich zu machen. Meine eigene Familie lebte nur, weil ein osmanischer offizieller meinen Urgroßvater warnte, dass Völkermord kam. Dieser Mann, an dessen Namen ich mich nicht erinnern kann - etwas, das mir wirklich Leid tut, denn mein Großvater starb, als ich jung war und seine Geschichten sind jetzt fast traumartig, bezahlte - für das Ticket nach Amerika für meine Familie, für Englischunterricht und alles, was benötigt wurde, um zu entkommen, bevor es zu spät war.

Ich hoffe, dass ich diesen guten und rechtschaffenden Mann in meinem kommenden Leben treffe. Ich hoffe, dass Gott Ihn in sein Reich akzeptiert hat.

Aber dennoch ist der Islam eine Ansteckung, auch wenn einige eine hartnäckige moralische Immunität gegen die Infektion pflegen. Wo der Islam geht, wird diese Gewalt folgen. Sie werden nie all die kleinen Jungen retten können, nie das Gemetzel stoppen. Alles, was Sie tun ist, es an Ihre eigenen Küste zu bringen.

Und wenn es etwas gibt, was ich sicher weiß, ist es, dass meine Vorfahren nicht dem Islam entkamen nur um zu sehen, wie ihre Nachkommen noch einmal, noch einmal in ihren eigenen Häusern zu kämpfen müßen.

Da waren Tränen in den Augen meines Großvaters, in Zeiten, als er die Dinge, die er wusste, erzählte. Und ich weiß, was seine Reaktion sein würde zu dem Tod dieses Jungen. Er würde weit mehr Mitgefühl und Trauer fühlen, als die moralische Wichtigtuer von ‘Progressive Leftism’. Aber dann würde er den Fernseher ausmachen und mir die Wahrheit sagen: dass wir dehnen nicht helfen können ohne uns selber zu verdammen.

Also, “Linken”, nehmen Sie Ihre Waffen Empathy anderswohin. Wir verstehen, dass die Welt voll ist von schrecklichen Dingen, von sterbenden Kindern, von versklavten Frauen. Aber wir müssen unsere eigene Entschlossenheit finden und unser eigenes Leben zu schützen.

Denn wenn wir das nicht tun können, dann könnte es mein Sohn, auf diesem fernen Strand sein, und das werde ich nicht zulassen.


Original article, Enlgish: ... d-empathy/

Hans, you cannot take a group of Muslims, give them access to all the "free stuff" others have worked for, give them access to a European education and expect them to be Europeans. Or even behave like Europeans. How many Muslims have come to Europe and the US, obtained an education, then went home and built bombs or other destructive devices and then fought against us? A squirrel that lives in a barn is not a horse. If a million squirrels show up, it will cease to be a barn altogether.

You're still arguing "Tu Quoque" - you point to Christianities failures as justification for allowing millions of Muslims into Europe, as if something that happened centuries ago somehow justifies the mass suicide of Europe here and now.

You don't understand, Hans... over here, there is a saying: "If you give a mouse a cookie..."

You're only dealing with the first mice... here, listen to this:

For the scores of thousands of Syrians in the Balkans, Hungary, Austria and Germany are only the first wave. Behind them in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan are 4 million refugees from the Syrian civil war. Seeing the success of the first wave, they are now on the move.

Behind them are 2 million Alawites and 2 million Christians who will be fleeing Syria when the Bashar Assad regime falls to ISIS and the al-Qaeda terrorists who already occupy half of that blood-soaked land.

Now the Iraqis, who live in a country the prospects for whose reunification and peace are receding, have begun to move. Also among the thousands pouring into Europe from Turkey are Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Afghans. When the Americans leave Afghanistan and the Taliban take their revenge, more Afghans will be fleeing west.

Africa has a billion people, a number that will double by 2050, and double again to 4 billion by 2100. Are those billions of Africans going to endure lives of poverty under ruthless, incompetent, corrupt and tyrannical regimes, if Europe’s door remains wide open?

What is coming is not difficult to predict.

Europe is going to run out of altruism long before it runs out of refugees. For as The New York Times reported Monday, there is no end in sight to the coming Third World and Islamic migrations to Europe.

Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:15 pm
by germanforestgump
Hi Billy, i guess, we were driven quite out of topic and should continue this problem of integrating different religions in a special topic.
Only a short remark: i guess religion is not the source but a symptom of genozidal human acting.
It is not islam specific.
The turks wanted to eliminate the armenians; if they had by chance had the same religion, they would have created another "reason" to "legitimate" genocide.
Some of the biggest genocides in history needed no islam to be committed...
But lets continue this on another topic.

Back to the question about founding new states for the refugees by rich sponsors:

Maybe it could be a solution if the specific methods are well prooved.
Maybe there could be a sort of "competition" in "who builds the best refugee community"?
Despite of my critic points above, i agree this will be a most more constructive competition between rich people than producing awful overluxury villas, ships etc.

So i just find another ambitioned project:
the "refugee nation" planned by Jason Buzi:

Whether those projects are setteled on hard islands, on floating constructions or in virtual,
are questions of technics to be discussed.
Another question is how to manage nationality, souveranity and law system in relation to international codexes...

Re: 20150903 Buy an Island: Back on topic plus link

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:00 pm
by tahanson43206
For germanforestgump ...

Thank you for bringing this thread back on topic ...

And thank you for providing a link to the Refugee Nation web site.

I followed a few of the links and concluded there is substance there, with thoughtful discussions on both sides of the issue.

No one (that I could see) is thinking about the Living Universe Foundation proposal to build floating habitats on the world's oceans.

That is understandable ... there is a profound mental block in place that affects the thinking of billions of people.

I would welcome serious discussion of the feasibility of design of floating habitats for about 25 families, which would be designed from the beginning to become economically self sustaining.


Re: 20150903 Buy and Island: Example of Action to Support

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:59 am
by Billy
Why not a collaborative effort between the UN and the super-rich?

The UN could send troops into Syria and create a safe zone. The super-rich could fund the effort. Let the factions fight it out elsewhere in Syria and wear themselves out.

By the way, the Greeks just intercepted their second tramp steamer of "aid" for the "refugees"... it contained 10,000 shotguns, plus ammunition. It came from Turkey. I suppose that's an improvement, since the last tramp steamer that was carrying "aid" also had 20,000 AK47's and explosives on board... the captain was a Turk, plus about half the crew... I'm noticing a pattern...

And one wonders how many "aid" shipments the Greeks missed that got through and what they were carrying?

Europe has spent the last 70 years disarming it's populations... it's not difficult to guess what comes next...